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Report 1333
Report #1333 Skillset: Dreamweaving Skill: Various Org: Pyromancers Status: Rejected Mar 2015 Furies' Decision: See report 1116. Problem: The current Dreamweaving sleep attrition mechanic has long been an issue when it comes to balancing this skillset out for combat. With Overhaul on the horizon looking to simplify combat and the goal of addressing this crutch from the skillset apparent, this report is written to streamline Dreamweaving as a whole to better be able to achieve its kill condition. I must maintain that sleep attrition *must* be addressed before the following solutions are considered. Solution #1: Remove tiredness from the SleepMist, Drowse, and DeepSleep abilities. Instead of tiredness affecting sleep and wake times, have a target's mana level affect how quickly they wake up. Higher mana means you wake up faster, while lower mana delays awake time more. Because mana drains are much more common, make the delay scale fairly through mana percentages. Solution #2: With Drowse hopefully being combined together with Slumber per report 1195, I'd like to then address DeepSleep by one of two possible ways: A) dropping power cost to 1p and becoming a double-hit of sleep (much as a Hexen doublewhammy sleep is) or B) dropping power cost to 2p and becoming a triple-hit of sleep to pierce through kafe. Solution #3: With SleepMist losing its attrition, introduce a passive tic of sleep to the effect to have it continue to support keeping victims asleep. Also, to bolster its manakill support, change its existing mana-drain-on-movement effect to a mana-drain-on-tic effect instead. Enable -chemancers and -woods to imbue SleepMist into their passives so they can likewise benefit from the skill as they currently can't. Player Comments: ---on 3/15 @ 18:48 writes: Solution 1 would be limited to dreamweavers? I think manadrain determining wake times would be a little much on other sleeplock classes. I'm ok with a 1p double sleep power, because beastsleep is limited to once every 10 seconds, 2p for triple sleep would be a bit too spammable. Maybe 4p? I'm behind solution 3, a passive sleep tick is fine by me and eliminates the attrition ---on 3/16 @ 00:18 writes: @Synkarin regarding Solution 1: It's something I definitely considered the impact for on other sleeplock classes. I think that short of creating a Resonance-type effect or code that recognizes who put a target to sleep to determine the activation of a delay, this change would hinge on scaling it fairly enough so that all classes would have to work at it to keep someone down. Maybe base 1s delay + .5s per 10% lost? Ideas are welcome for this range since its admittedly not my strong suit. If a Resonance-type skill is preferred, I have a couple of ideas for that as well. ---on 3/16 @ 00:20 writes: @Synkarin regarding Solution 2: I wouldn't go past 2p for an on-demand triple sleep. It's already viable as most anything else with beast sleep, and it doesn't make sense that DWs would actually have more hurdles to getting someone directly asleep than other classes (power regen time vs beast balance time). And as for how often it could be used, is this consideration too imbalancing for a skillset whose entire premise is to keep someone asleep? ---on 3/16 @ 03:18 writes: After a lengthy discussion over Envoys with Ieptix, I'd like to ammend Solution 1 to a potentially more viable task: taking the sleep timer and applying it personally to a target rather than being on the global timer. Make forced sleep prevent the victim from waking up immediately (x-seconds), and make mana levels affect the probability of the WAKE command succeeding. Natural awakeners who sleep to regen should remain unaffected, but awakeners who type WAKE (with its 25% chance to successfully wake per second) would be affected in such that this chance could scale lower the lower mana the sleeper has. I wouldn't be opposed to raising the initial wake chance to 33% per second because mana drains are much more prevalent. ---on 3/16 @ 03:51 writes: After another discussion on Envoys, I'd like to ammend Solution 2 to only support solution 2A. 2B is deemed unbalancing when Druidry Sap is taken into account. I'd like to also ammend Solution 3 to enable the 8p meld recast skills (Conflagration, Regrowth, etc.) to also reset and time SleepMist in a meld to get it in tune with all other effects. ---on 3/17 @ 03:01 writes: And if SleepMist can tic last in any given list of demesne powers, that'd help manage the passive sleep better, I think. ---on 3/20 @ 02:51 writes: Supporting all solutions. Also: fused runes/motes should be timed with the meld tics if we used the 8p pop, imo. It makes things more straightforward(which is the aim of the overhaul, yes?). ---on 3/20 @ 17:46 writes: It also allows for easy stacking of effects in a way that didn't occur before, with a slightly-more-than-10-seconds-tick time. I don't think it's a good idea. ---on 3/20 @ 17:54 writes: Thinking over this report, I don't think this suite of solutions will create a useful or viable sleeping technique for mages, and will represent a marginal strategy for druids. Historically, the backbone of Dreamweaving combat (For druids) has been the presence of several recurring effects, freeing the sapper to use their balances towards pursing a kill. The sleep attrition portion represented a strong part of that combo, which was bolstered heavily by the eq/bal loss motes and narcolepsy. The removal of most of the offensive motes really takes away from that element of druid dreamweaver combat, the removal of passive sleep ticks in favor of active alternatives is a further strong nerf to the skill's viability for sapping druids. Solution 2 does nothing functional to solve this problem (triple sleep is already a possibility, and is unnecessary to the strategy), though it allows a wider margin of error due to lower power cost. This is probably okay, it's just something to keep in mind. ---on 3/20 @ 18:00 writes: I'm unsure how this will affect mages. Solution 3's passive sleep tick will allow mages to potentially use sleeping combos without having to dampen effects (as I and other druids using dreamweaving have long done), if it always hits last. However, with no source of aeon effect, even with a triple sleep and passive sleep tick, it will be very hard to keep it on long enough to mean much. Those mages with a non-damage based instakill (like Geos) will clearly benefit the most, and they may perhaps be the only ones who really profit from this kind of change - Aeros as well, from report 1313. The other mages will have a very hard time using dreamweaving's instakill (eternalsleep) with the special caveat on max tiredness made obsolete. Even with a modest mana drain applied by sleepmist, there isn't much in the skillset that truly pressures mana (without an aeon-effect). In groups. I can't imagine this working well at all. In that situation, as with dreamweaving prior, the main 'strength' will be spammed blackouts and potential sprawl, which most mages are unable to support (again, except for Geos and Aeros, and potentially Pyros with slickness/broken leg stacks). ---on 3/20 @ 18:05 writes: All of that said: I support solution 1 and 3 tentatively. For solution 2, the best alternative is to make deepsleep a -double- sleep attack instead of a triple. Then, you would need to either use a beast attack (limited to one per 15 seconds) OR time it well with your demesne to achieve triple sleep, with the additional (tiny) cost of needing to induce to drop metawake. This would prevent mages from consistently spamming a near-free triplesleep at the drop of a hat. A wider look at dreamweaving and the utility of sleep locks will eventually be required. ---on 3/21 @ 06:08 writes: Given the huge shutdown potential of sleeping (pretty much on par with crucify or aeon, in that it denies pretty much all commands except one) I think a move away from attrition is a GREAT idea. The premise of the report, which is to remove the attrition aspect and make it an active mechanic that is manipulatable by both the DW and the target, instead of random and/or incurable due to tiredness, is one I support. I do echo Enyalida's concern about the wake chance being dependent on mana, though, since it not only makes it harder for mages/druids (who are the dreamweavers) to capitalize on, it also makes it easier for wiccans, who pretty much already have all of the capabilities detailed in this report (passive sleep tic, double sleep active, ability to switch off metawake) AND a more potent mana draining kit, passive and active, in their main skillsets. Perhaps making it dependent on ego, and then giving (strong) ego passive and/or active draining to dreamweavers, might be an easier way of doing this? ---on 3/22 @ 22:24 writes: @Lerad I think that switching the focus from mana to ego would be very interesting, actually. I was considering altering Void to address the issue (by tying the effects from caster to victim via Void a la Harmonics Resonance) in case this change did push wiccans over the edge. EternalSleep would have to be switched to ego-based (and all other mana-drain effects in DW), but I think this would be a possibility that keeps DW changes from affecting other manakillers. @Ieptix, could this work instead? ---on 3/27 @ 21:59 writes: I'm still concerned that making it possible to drop triplesleep several times in a row with minimal power restrictions will be really overwhelming with certain mage kits for pure shutdown spam without really providing any useful/non- gimmicky options. ---on 4/17 @ 17:42 writes: I'll make a decision on this report after having a chance to discuss the report with Viynain and other envoys.